Heather McGhee is an author, activist, and researcher who has produced The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, one of the most consequential books about wealth inequality and race one can read.

To sum up her findings: Not only is racism stupid, but it’s also expensive.

Al Franken’s latest is an interview with McGhee, who he calls his “favorite,” and I can see why.

Here it is on Al’s own site, or find it wherever you get your podcasts.